We Are Power Podcast
The We Are Power podcast is the podcast for your career and your life. A weekly podcast with listeners in over 60 countries worldwide where you'll hear personal life stories, top-notch industry advice, and key leadership insight from amazing role models. The podcast not only aids your personal and professional development but also delves deep into conversations around Gender Equality and Social Mobility. Each week the We Are Power Podcast will bring you a new interview from a leader within the 100,000-strong We Are Power community, hosted by Simone Roche MBE.
We Are Power Podcast
Inspiring Inclusivity and Advocacy with Dr. Deborah Lawson
Meet Dr. Deborah Lawson, a powerhouse in disability advocacy. Her story is not just about personal achievements but about fuelling a greater passion for equality, diversity, and inclusion.
Deborah shares the experiences that shaped her path, from battling for accessible housing to helping others navigate a system that can be slow to change. Her stories are a reminder of the everyday courage that pushes society forward, bit by bit.
Deborah’s mission to raise awareness also led her to create Damson’s Friendship Wish, a children’s book that gently teaches kids about acceptance and the beauty of inclusion.
Listen to learn:
- Why creating inclusive communities benefits us all
- How compassionate leadership can challenge unconscious bias
- The quiet impact of helping others without seeking recognition
- The importance of small acts of kindness
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Hello, hello and welcome to the we Are Power podcast. If this is your first time here, the we Are Power podcast is the podcast for you, your career and your life. We release an episode every single Monday with listeners in over 60 countries worldwide, where you'll hear personal life stories, top-notch industry advice and key leadership insight from amazing role models. As we Are Power is the umbrella brand to Northern Power Women Awards, which celebrates hundreds of female role models and advocates every year. This is where you can hear stories from all of our awards alumni and stay up to date with everything MPW Awards and we Are Power.
Speaker 1:So today I am joined by Dr Deborah Lawson, who is a multi-award winning disability advocate, who received her honorary doctorate very recently from Portsmouth University for significant contributions to society advancing EDI over two decades, impacting hundreds of thousands of lives. And that's just even just a small part of my guest Debra's bio today. Debra, welcome to the we Are Power podcast. Thank you, hi. It's lovely to be here. And it was Portsmouth University, wasn't it? It was, yeah, it was. That is amazing. What did that feel like, dr?
Speaker 2:Deborah, yeah, mind-blowing, it's not sunk in. My husband keeps using it all the time and for the first few weeks I was like who? And yeah, mind-blowing, really I don't actually think it will sink in.
Speaker 1:No, and you've got to embrace that, and I'd have the full title all the time. Quite frankly, in fact, we need to change the caption in the bottom of the screen here, but this isn't new for you. Winning numerous awards, including the Prime Minister's Point of Light Awards and, of course, the pièce de la résistance, the Person with Purpose Award, at this year's Northern Power Women Awards. What does all this recognition mean to you? Because we often find it awkward, don't we, to take that on board.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, it does mean the world to me. It's hard to put it into words what it feels like, because I mean I'm quite a passionate person and I'm very, very empathetic and when I see people struggling or areas, I will get my cup and fill theirs up. And it does leave you empty, you know, and it feels that when you recognize and you win an award, it feels like the awards are filling your cup back up and it gives you that charge to keep going again. And, yeah, it's like it gives you a few years more of do you know what? I mean? The emotional and the upbeat and everything that you can then go and do again. And because you've given what, what you've got to somebody else, but then they give it to you and it's like it's like good karma always coming around again to you.
Speaker 2:You know, um, and yeah it, it really does it. Just it just gives you the boost that you need. You know, sometimes you don't even realize, like how almost um out of energy you are with it all, and then that happens and it takes you by surprise and you think, oh my gosh. And you know I remember talking to you when it just happened and I said I was like on a buzz. I'm still on that buzz. You know that buzz hasn't gone yet, you know so. But yeah, so I. I do think it just gives you the confidence to keep making a positive difference, really, and what has?
Speaker 1:it felt like sort of embracing the Northern Power Women uh awards and the we Are Power community, because I I see you have really embraced it, or let us embrace you, shall I say?
Speaker 2:I love it.
Speaker 2:I kind of feel like it's family and I haven't really got much of a family around me and and it feels like, um, when, when you win an award and it is such a powerful community and it's like they take you under their wing, it's like you become part of the army, and a powerful, positive army, and it feels really, really good because it gives you that feeling that you know these people, they believe in what I'm doing, and that feels really powerful because you just think you know I'm on the right track, what I'm doing is right and it does.
Speaker 2:It just keeps you going forward, it just keeps you thinking you know I've got that confidence to keep going because I think as well, you know, if you work for a charity and different things, that's all very well and good, but when you're alone and you're doing it, it's much harder because there's nobody there to shiver you along or be there, or, but you know, you almost feel like, yeah, you've got a team of women celebrating you as well, going, come on, you know, and so, yeah, it makes a huge, huge difference and I love the fact that I love that reference to a power, a powerful, positive army.
Speaker 1:I love that. Uh, might have to be a navy because obviously that that's my background, but it's okay, well, we'll take no, absolutely absolutely, and you talk about motor and on.
Speaker 1:It was only a few weeks back. I tagged you in a post on on LinkedIn, which was um you were. We incorporated um, a great shot of you from the night of the awards, with joy on your face, and it was on the side of a massive building, uh in Manchester, to promote when we had the awards nominations open, and within two hours you were in a car sending me a picture of you outside. I mean, that was phenomenal talk about motoring on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, oh, it was so true, like my husband. Immediately he was just like. I said you know. I said I said he said well, you know, when are we going? And I said, well, I said you know, I said possibly go late tonight or, and he said no, no, we said we're going as soon as we get home. He said I'm on my way home. And immediately we just got in the car and that was it off. We went, you know. And then, oh, what, what an honor, what. Yeah, it was like something on my bucket list I didn't realize was on my bucket list, you know. And then, yeah, what a huge honor. I, I, yeah, all my friends are sort of saying that's it, you're a celebrity. Now, you know.
Speaker 1:And then, yeah, I can't believe it and you talk about your husband. I remember meeting you in person for the first time at the awards uh, last year. I'm pretty certain he he tried you and you and him ran over me in my dress, but that's a whole other thing.
Speaker 2:I did, I did, yeah, but but, but you're a team.
Speaker 1:The thing that strikes me is you're a team and what you've just talked about there, which I wasn't aware of, the fact that he just went, let's go, like you know, let's, let's get on this, let's, yeah, let's celebrate every moment, right, absolutely yeah, he's huge on just uplifting me and I almost feel like, you know, without him I couldn't do half of what I do.
Speaker 2:And I just feel like it's this big blow and it's almost like he not literally, but it's like he puts me on his shoulders and says, you know you can't do all these things, but you can if I'm there. So off he goes and like, literally, it's like he lives for me. It's like he just feels his purpose is to help me achieve and whatever I, whatever I need to do, he's just there. It's like well, where should we go? What do you need to do? Where do you need me to take you? Do you need me to take a day off work so I can take you to do that? Do you need me to do this? And it's just amazing to have that support and somebody that believes in what you're doing that strongly. And then he, he's carried that on himself. You know he will then go off and be an ally and an advocate himself, you know, and so it's so nice to see that, you know. And, yeah, just to see that difference.
Speaker 2:And we are, we're just like a twosome. You know, we go everywhere. I mean, I need to go everywhere with somebody. I can't really go by myself, but I have so much fun. You know, yesterday I went to the dentist to have two crowns and he dropped me off to come back and I was like immediately like you can't, you know? And then I was like come on, deb, you're an adult, because I'm so used to having to have somebody there with me, you know.
Speaker 1:I can't even. I've never, ever heard a phrase that said I had so much fun going the dentist. Debra. Hey, you're always wearing a crown as far as I'm concerned, debra, but we're just talking. I know we've talked about awards and obviously we're very proud of what we've created and built. You know the largest event celebrating gender equality in Europe, don't you? But awards have a big part to play, do you think? In sort of driving conversations around inclusivity, around EDI, especially around where under-representation lies 100%, because I think they elevate people that are under-represented.
Speaker 2:I think that's really important so they recognise the work that some people that wouldn't get noticed are doing. I think it it means as well that conversations are had, that need to be had. You know, even even on the night, you know you'll be networking or you'll be reading or hearing what other people are doing and thinking I didn't even realize that was a problem. And then you start learning about it, thinking wow, that's amazing. You know, when you connect with these people and you stay in touch with them and you know, and I think as well, it encourages people to do good as well, because I think, even like organizations and things will be sat and they'll be watching and they'll think you know, that's really cool. You know, and if they're doing that, why aren't I doing that?
Speaker 2:And you know, and I think you know holistically, it can make such a difference. Um, and it just elevates people that normally are not elevated because it's, you know, people in the public eye. It can be the same to you all always. And then there's just these people and students doing like silent charity work. They never get noticed, you know, and I think, yeah, I think it's so important to have awards and be at these events and things like that. You know, because, yeah, you learn so much for other people and celebrating them as well. I think you know just to be there and celebrating other people and what they're doing, and it's it's amazing some of the work that you've done major, major, major campaigns.
Speaker 1:Disability awareness guide that has, and training programs across 600 stores and as well as authored, accessible fashion guidance what has been the most sort of rewarding um aspect of, of creating and making this change um with this, with this work that you've done just seeing the difference.
Speaker 2:Um, I am somebody that is a bit of a believer in like silent charity work. So I'm somebody that likes to spend like a year on a massive project and and then go and see it and people don't know it's me that's done it all, and then I'll see them going, enjoying it, and I'll see them going in and being accepted, being welcomed and, you know, going around with a smile on the face and just to know that you've created that for other people, and I'll just sit there thinking, awesome, that is how the world should be. That is what I want the world to be. I want everybody to be seen and respected and valued. And seeing the changes of people's attitudes and things like that towards a lot of marginalized groups, you know, and, yeah, it makes it all worthwhile, because I think that you don't choose to be a disability advocate, it almost chooses you.
Speaker 2:You know, when you, when you are discriminated against and isolated and ostracized and things like that, and I think some of us immediately think, no, we can't sit back and just allow this to happen to another generation of people, you know, and especially disabled women have it even harder and I think so. You know when that happens. It is. It's like you automatically just have to move forward and then these things find you and then I think, because, as well, disability you really are discriminated in every area of your life. It's not just a small sector. Everything you do, all day long, discriminated against, discriminated against, discriminated against.
Speaker 2:I think that's why my work has always been so broad. It's because I didn't want to just focus on one area. I wanted to change. I wanted change completely. You know, I wanted the next generation not to experience what I'd experienced, you know. And so, yeah, so it really is just seeing that change, just seeing people treated better and seeing people welcomed and able to go into stores and buildings and different things like that. You know, and you know, yeah, not have to go through those feelings that some of us have had to go through, you know, but we still not have to go through those feelings that some of us have had to go through you know, but we still have to do better, don't we?
Speaker 1:there's still so much to be done. If you had, you've talked about creating that future and that change for the next generation. If, with your magic wand, I was going to say, if you had a magic wand, but clearly you, you have one, right, so that magic wand is, is charged up. Now, what? What? We, what?
Speaker 2:would you use that for? I think I change people's attitudes. I think attitudinal barriers is a huge problem. I think if you have the right attitude, you automatically then look to change you automatically. Then you know you you think, oh well, hang on a minute, something's, something's wrong here. You, you know there's no ramp, we're not letting people in. We're not, you know.
Speaker 2:And, for example, this is where it really started. I started off realizing that I couldn't access anywhere, so I started focusing on physical accessibility and then I realized I went into the shops and I was still treated really badly. People told my husband that I was invisible and different things like that. I thought this is not working. What have I missed, you know? And I realized that actually it was.
Speaker 2:It was people's attitudes and unconscious bias that needs to change, and once we tackle that, then things improve because then they want to change. You know, if you've got a strong leader like yourself leading the way, with a positive attitude, who you know wants equality, your staff then will change. Your staff then will lead and and follow you, and that that's, I think the key is, it's making sure that there are strong people in positions of of leadership. You know, for others to follow. For, you know, because I think that that really is the yeah, that's the issue, because too many people don't care, too many people sort of say, well, you can't access it, well, you just can't come in when you just have to stay at home, well, you just it's like, no, nobody should do that, nobody should feel like that, you know.
Speaker 2:So I think, I think, yeah, it is, it's, but I think, unfortunately, it's so deep and ingrained in us all. In books, you know, you think about the media, you think about fairy tales, captain Hook, you know, um Tiny Tim, there's so many negative um images in the media of disabled people, um, that need them picking, that need sort of rewinding back. Um, yeah, I think it would take like 200 years to resolve everything, but I think if you don't start, it's never going to start being unpicked, you know, and if you had one ask of our listeners and watchers um, whether they be a leader, whether they be part of a community, what would your ask of them to be?
Speaker 1:Because if you've got, haven't got 200 years to wait, can't wait that for change yeah, and it would be to embrace diversity, uh, for all marginalized groups.
Speaker 2:I mean, I know a lot of disabled people feel that we are the forgotten, um, marginalized group. Disability is um, but yeah, it, it would be to embrace it and to to listen, to employ disabled people to. Any decisions that affect disabled people must involve disabled people, you know, otherwise it's very othering. You know, um, you know nothing, nothing about us without us. You know, um, and I think that's so important because you know there is I I don't know whether you listeners are familiar with like the medical model of disability and the charity model of disability and the social model of disability. And the social model is literally society's disabling us. You know, it's not us that are disabled, it's society. You know it's.
Speaker 2:Somebody else has decided to put stairs in everywhere and stairs in shops to disable me from coming in. You know, somebody's decided to put a narrow doorway. None of those things needed to be there. Somebody has gone around and disabled people, you know. So it's about learning that society can take control of that. You know, it's society. It's not, it's not my fault because I have to use a wheelchair. It's like we can all do something to make things better to make things easier. You know we can. At the end of the day, if you put level access in, it's accessible for everybody. You know you're not excluding anybody, you know. So it is reframing people's thoughts, I think you know.
Speaker 1:I remember it was a gosh. It must be about three years ago now and it was um. I was interviewing an amazing woman on the podcast and she talked, and she was talked about. You know, don't just put a wheelchair ramp in for a wheelchair user, don't just think single-mindedly about that. That's the answer to that. Put it in because actually it could help that person, it could benefit that, it could be a solution for here, but it becomes sort of that tick box. So it is that, that social exclusion, that you're talking about and not thinking. But to your point, advocacy and seats at the table are critical. We need that representation. If that, you just said nothing about us without us cannot be making decisions and making change unless you're invited.
Speaker 1:So, deborah, get at more tables, right, exactly, invite deborah to more tables, because I know you'd be as many as you could get to I do?
Speaker 2:yeah, I do, and and it is exactly that, because I think that I mean, as you know, I've got an issue with my housing at the moment and and some of the biggest problems is is because the people making the decisions they're not. They're not disabled, they're not wheelchair users, they draw up plans that they've no idea about, you know, and if they don't listen, if they don't work with people, they don't understand how, you know, different people's experiences of life is. And I didn't, I genuinely didn't. You know, I became disabled in my late teens and it really shocked me because I suddenly thought, whoa, it's like there's a different world out here and it was hidden in plain sight. It was something I've never seen.
Speaker 2:And, you know, I give myself a little bit of grace because I was a teenager, but I think about it all the time and think I didn't really notice those steps. I didn't really notice all those people being excluded. Why didn't I? Why? Why, as a society, weren't we brought aware of that? Why did why? Are we sort of? You know? Why don't we? Why don't we notice those things? Why have we been brought up to not notice those things? You know, and it is, it's like, it's like there is a world hidden in plain sight that's affecting millions of people, that, yeah, we all need to tackle it. It's everybody's problem, you know. If, if we all, and I'm and I, that's the same with any sort of discrimination, it's everybody's problem.
Speaker 1:We all need to come together and be a society and be there for each other, you know and we all need to be advocates and I always believe that we don't need to be um monogamous with our advocacy and I'm sure that sounds wrong in in many different ways. But but we don't, we don't just have to go. Oh, I'm going to be an advocate for um, this underrepresented group, or I'm going to be we. We can share the love around right and and to your point, I loved your phrase about talking. We can all operate as like a silent charity. Yes, yeah, we don't have to go out. We're in badges and you know we love our badges and and such like. We don't have to go out and do that. Yeah, but we can, you know we can make, we can all be that intentional ally and advocate exactly, and I think I think that's it.
Speaker 2:I can, you know, we can make, we can all be that intentional ally and advocate exactly, and I think I think that's it. I think, you know, to me I I fell into advocacy because I didn't like injustice and it bothered me to to have that happen to me but to see it happen to other people. But that injustice happens not just to disabled people, it happens to, you know, because of your religion, because if you relate your race, you know, because of your sexuality, and that injustice just burns me, you know, and I think that when you're like that, we are so powerful if we all came together and realized that so many people, I think, are bothered by that. You know, and yeah, even you know, like gender equality, we all want fairness and, and underline it, we all want this equality that we haven't got, you know. And, yeah, I just think that society could change so easily because if, if we realize the numbers of us is so big, you know, we outnumber people that don't want it, you know.
Speaker 1:And one of the things that I'm like in awe of as well, is that you've also written a children's book, damson's Friendship Wish, which is all about promoting inclusion at a younger age, because education at the youngest age and informing those stereotypes and biases at that early age is critical. How are you hoping that this book is going to change the conversation around disability and equity and fairness?
Speaker 2:So I mean, the way I see it is, children are really, really receptive and I'm hoping that you know, if you discuss it from a really young age, that they'll just see that as normal. You know they won't because they're curious. If you discuss it from a really young age, that they'll just see that as normal. You know they. They won't because they're curious and they're like little sponges, aren't they at that age? And I'm also really hoping that you know kids that feel different, for whatever reason, will realize that's okay. You know they are already perfect and they're like little stars. Every single one of them shines brightly in the sky. You know they don't need to all be one star, they're all separate little stars, you know, and I want them to have that confidence and that self-acceptance. They are brilliant as they are and I want other children to know that, that those children are brilliant as they are, as they are. They're all. They're all equal, you know, and I think it's so important to introduce that at a young age and because it's something that people avoid talking about, you know, or I mean when I was, when I was writing the book, um, I talked to an editor and he said to me oh no, you have to have bullying, you have to show that the, that the sort of the, the sort of the character that's meant to sort of represent disability is, is hated and bullied. And I was like, no, why is that a thing? Why are we teaching kids that actually, you know, if you're disabled or you're different, it's all right to be bullied? I was like, no, why is that a thing? Why are we teaching kids that actually, you know, if you're disabled or you're different, it's all right to be bullied? I was like, no, we shouldn't do that, you know.
Speaker 2:And I said, in that way, I don't care if I never sell a single copy. I said I want to do what I see is right, you know, and it's been delayed. I was meant to sort of release it a month or two ago, two ago, and I've delayed it. Um, but the profits from it are going to go to donating more, so as many copies as possible can go into children's hands, to, to, yeah, to just embrace it. Just embrace that actually they're fine, they're perfect and we're all different, but that's awesome. You know, those differences are just what makes us who we are, you know. And, yeah, you know, that difference is just what's good about everybody? You know we don't all want to be the same.
Speaker 1:No, absolutely. It is absolutely embracing your own uniqueness, uniqueness and what is going to be the uniqueness of, of your legacy, deborah.
Speaker 2:I guess, resilience and not giving up. I think really, yeah, not being afraid, having the courage to speak up, having the courage to keep going even when it makes you unpopular, because you know, I've come up against real resistance that really knocks your confidence. You know, especially when I started doing it there was nobody wanted to know about it. You know, now it's a little bit more accepted, but you still get met with resistance all the time. So to speak up can be quite scary, but it's about speaking up and then realizing if you keep going you will make a difference. But it takes time, I think, because we're trying to dismantle systems and build them again from the bottom up. That doesn't happen overnight, you know, and it's about looking and thinking. Actually she did that. It took her all this time, but she made a massive difference.
Speaker 2:And it's about having that self-belief that actually, if you keep going, those little steps they become miles, they become. Do you know what I mean? The further you keep walking, the further you're going to get. You know what I mean. Like, the further you keep walking, further you're gonna get you know. And just having that self-belief that, no matter what anybody does, they make a difference. You know, if you, if you offer your arm to somebody on the street because they're feeling a bit wobbly, you've made a difference to somebody. You know the tiniest things it doesn't always have to be huge things that somebody does if everybody just did something small, we would be a better community, you know, and I think I think that kindness is so important. You know, just be there for each other.
Speaker 1:I'm a big fan of the small, the small incremental, the small little things all add up into something sort of massively momentous. What is next for you? We talked about the book, we know. We've talked about so your many accomplishments. We know you've been involved in, in trials and having seats at the table, uh, to ensure that um, research, um outcomes, are, are, are more impactful because you're at the table, um, but what is next for you? Because you're not stopping, no, I'm never gonna stop.
Speaker 2:I don't know what I'm doing. Carry on. Carry on with what I'm doing, Pushing. I mean, I mentioned my housing before, you know, and I've spoken out about it and it's great. You know, I've been contacted by literally hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people saying that, because I had the courage to speak up, they're now speaking up for the first time.
Speaker 1:And this is an injustice, isn't it? This is the home that you lived in um, if I recall rightly because I know yeah explain, deborah yes, yes.
Speaker 2:So, um, I was in a, an adapted home that was set on fire by some builders that my housing association employed. We were then homeless for four months. We were, uh, rehoused in a place that was far too small and less than half the size, and I've been battling for eight years to either get adaptations or be moved um, and nothing's happened in eight years. All we've done is they've just talked about it, discussed what to do. Um, well, I've, I mean, all my clothes are in the loft, um, all my belongings, all my medical equipment, everything up a ladder. You know, um, literally, I mean, there's no room for wardrobes, there's no room for anything. It's that small and in the end I thought I've got to speak up, because this is not, this is not just a me problem. You know, there's 400 000 wheelchair users in the uk in inaccessible homes. Again, it's another problem hidden in plain sight, and if I don't speak up and have the courage to do that, as much as I don't want to sort of share my life everywhere, it's not going to, things are not going to change, you know, and and, as I said, you know, I've had people contact me telling me that you know they've had. They were housed in places that they had to crawl upstairs on their hands and knees and all sorts of awful things. And they're sort of saying you know, now you've spoken up, we're speaking up, and I've seen them posting it, saying this is the first time I've discussed this and the first time I'm admitting it, because I felt so much shame around it and I'm just thinking, yes, you know, this is brilliant. You know, and I've made sure I'm going to be taking it, making sure that the disability unit know it. I've reported it to every organization in the government you can think of. I'm part of a government network and we're talking about how to get it to the disability minister. We want change, you know.
Speaker 2:They sort of reported back to me and said, oh, we're thinking of this with new homes and it's like it's not a new home problem. A lot of disabled people we can't afford to either move or rent a new home. It's existing. Either move or rent a new home is existing homes. We need to. You know, they need to be communicating with people, um, so it's almost like everything. As I said, it's almost like it. I don't choose it, it chooses me, you know, and whatever kind of happens. I realize actually this this needs tackling. This is still a ginormous problem that people are not not dealing with, they're not dealing with, they're not tackling, and it needs somebody to just, you know, basically bravely say, right, we have to do something, you know, and make a difference. And yeah, it's never just you that's suffering.
Speaker 1:It will be so many people that are suffering with you, and this is where you can never, never, never underestimate the power of your voice, the power of like, leaning in to go. Well, actually, if I don't shout out about this, who else? And if you don't, and if you're opening it for someone else, you're gonna make change. You're a perennial change maker, debra. You're a like, an outstanding advocate, and it's an honor to to just speak with you, because I know we're going to keep watching this space. We're going to keep watching this change, because the work's not done and what we need is more advocates to join, more advocates to open the doors, to help us to get to the solutions. So we're not talking about this in 200 years. Yes, exactly that.
Speaker 2:The more people that speak up, the more people that do what I'm doing, the quicker that change is going to come, and the more that services, because services are broken and they only serve the you know, the people that hold the purse strings. They're not, they're not benefiting the end users, but the more people that speak up, the more they have to change, because voices, as you say, they're so powerful. You know, and, yeah, as many people that can speak up as possible, as many people that can advocate, as many people that can be an ally as possible, it makes a huge difference. Because I think we're so. We have social media now, something we never used to have, and that, yeah, that is so powerful. I mean, for example, last week, 11 of my linkedin views were from the regulator of social housing. You know, that's huge, because that means that people, people with power, are really looking and following what's happening.
Speaker 1:You know so you do make a difference and this is the power and you most definitely make a difference. If you want to support or get in touch or get behind or enable anything that Debra's doing, please do get in touch. Follow on our or enable anything that Deborah's doing, please do get in touch. Follow on our socials because this is an ultimate Northern Power Women. Deborah, thank you so much. You are awesome. We will continue to stay connected, see and follow all of the amazing work you do. Thank you so much for joining us today on the we Are Power podcast. Subscribe on YouTube, apple, amazon Music, spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Leave us a review or follow us on socials. We are power underscore net on Insta, tiktok and Twitter. We are power on LinkedIn, facebook and we are underscore power on YouTube.
