We Are PoWEr Podcast
The We Are PoWEr podcast spotlights voices and perspectives that need to be heard. Our weekly podcast, with listeners in over 60 countries, delivers PoWErful conversations that inspire, challenge, and empower... from personal life stories to business insights and leadership lessons.
We share diverse experiences, bold discussions, and real solutions. Whether you're looking for career advice, topical themes, or stories of resilience and success - this is where voices spark change.
We Are PoWEr Podcast
How Preparation, Values, And Humor Built A 40-Year Career
In this episode, we speak with Peter Jackson, Partner & Non-Executive Director at Hill Dickinson LLP, strategist, and proud Scouser, about a career shaped by graft, humour, resilience, and deep connection to the city of Liverpool.
Peter shares how imposter syndrome, preparation, and the ability to communicate clearly became defining traits of his leadership, and why “doing the homework” still sits at the heart of how he approaches everything.
Peter talks candidly about decision-making, managing risk, influencing a partnership, and leading with values. He also reflects on reading at the Hillsborough memorial, the importance of humour even in tragedy, and the moment a routine medical check revealed he needed a quadruple bypass.
Peter’s story offers an honest, grounded look into leadership: the wins, the wobbles, and the non-negotiables that protect your wellbeing when the world gets loud.
You’ll hear:
➡️ Why preparation and curiosity formed the backbone of Peter’s leadership
➡️ How imposter syndrome motivated — rather than limited — his career
➡️ The inside story of Hill Dickinson’s naming rights at Everton’s new stadium
➡️ What reading at the Hillsborough memorial taught him about community and humanity
➡️ Why humour can carry you through crisis
➡️ How establishing “non-negotiables” protects leaders from burnout
➡️ The warning signs he missed before needing a quadruple bypass — and what he learned next
Find out more about We Are PoWEr here. 💫
Hello, hello, and welcome to the We Are Power Podcast. If this is your first time here, the We Are Power Podcast is the podcast for you, your career, and your life. We release an episode every single Monday with listeners in over 60 countries worldwide where you'll hear personal life stories, top-notch industry advice, and key leadership insight from amazing role models. As We Are Power is the umbrella brand to Northern Power Women Awards, which celebrates hundreds of female role models and advocates every year. This is where you can hear stories from all of our awards alumni and stay up to date with everything MPW Awards and We Are Power.
unknown:Never imitated, never implicated, singularly wonderful. Everybody's wonderful.
SPEAKER_00:Well, hello and welcome to the podcast. I am delighted to be joined by Peter Jackson. Welcome to the pod.
SPEAKER_01:Hello, good to see you. Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_00:You never know where a LinkedIn conversation can start, can you? You never know. I was listening to one of Peter's pods on the wonderful Lisa Morton. Uh, and she let you on her pod, which is specifically Manchester-based pod, but you let the Scouser odd right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, she did, because uh we've worked together a long time, Lisa now. We know each other well, but she's also now doing something about people who made a difference in Manchester allegedly from outside. And I think we did.
SPEAKER_00:And you are non-exact and a partner of Hill Dickinson, are you? No, I see that every day here over in fabulous Liverpool on the side of the brand new Everton Stadium, which is obviously very exciting for me. For those who know me, know I'm a blue. Yeah, but you're a red, right?
SPEAKER_01:I'm a red, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But you're welcome. Thank you. We can get over it. We'll be alright.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, we'll get over it.
SPEAKER_00:How would you describe yourself in three words?
SPEAKER_01:Um energetic, realistic, and scouse.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, like it. Get that tattooed.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, no, no, no, I'm too old for tattoos. I'm not brave enough, quite frankly, either. It'll hurt. I don't know.
SPEAKER_00:Have you had one? Have you had a tattoo with a lot of it?
SPEAKER_01:I've never had a tattoo and I'm never having one, and I'll have no idea what it would say.
SPEAKER_00:Sharpie kind of never will that.
SPEAKER_01:No, draw the line at that.
SPEAKER_00:And you have had such a massive career in law, right? And so much so you were doing such a grand job that they wished you over to Manchester to make it all better as well. But when you were growing up, did you know what you wanted to be?
SPEAKER_01:No. Um, I went to St. Eddie's, St. Edward's in Liverpool. Um, got probably got to the stage of A levels actually, did English history, French, didn't do very well in French, uh, and didn't know what I wanted to do. But a great friend of mine, a family friend, had studied law and he told me about it, and it seemed interesting, and I thought I might like it. So I thought I'd have a go at that. Uh, got into university and um did a law degree. Still at that stage didn't know what I was going to use it for, I was gonna make a living out of it. Um, and it was probably in my second year at university. Um, you were encouraged to apply for jobs at that point for what we used to call articles of clerkship in the good old days. Um, I didn't think I'd be good enough on my feet to be a barrister. I don't think I'd be quick, quick enough. So I applied for articles and I got them at Hill Diginson and Co. Um, did a couple of internship, well we didn't call it internships then, it was it was summer, summer work or whatever in the early 80s, and then started on the 1st of September 1983. And the rest is history, as they say.
SPEAKER_00:And you think you're gonna make a career of it.
SPEAKER_01:I'm thinking about it. I'm not convinced yet, but I'm thinking about it. Of course, I only did law for the for the first for the first 20 years, uh until 2005, because when I went into management, I I no longer practiced, and it would be foolish of me to even think about advising people on the law now because well, I'm out of it. Uh I couldn't do it.
SPEAKER_00:And and you've already answered one of sort of my next question, if you like, in that one of the three words you used to describe yourself was scouse. Yeah. Growing up in this, you know, the magnificent city that is Liverpool, full of you know, hard work, graft, humour, football, cathedrals, music. Yeah. Um, is that what's made you who you are?
SPEAKER_01:Um I it's definitely contributed to who I am. Um I think uh you you hit the nail on the head there. Hard work, graft, humour. I think scouses uh are adept at mixing that very, very serious the hard work, the graft, with we're always gonna have a laugh. It's humour, it's lighthearted, you know, it's the um uh nobody died syndrome. Um let's just get on with it. Um and and I think that's definitely contributed to my personality, to you know, some of the characteristics I think I display.
SPEAKER_00:And you left Liverpool but went off to Oxford, right?
SPEAKER_01:I was lucky enough to go to Oxford University. I was good at passing exams. That was that was.
SPEAKER_00:What was your hack? Give us a exam hack.
SPEAKER_01:My exam hack. I I was just good at it. Um and and I seemed to do okay at exams. I wouldn't say I was academically brilliant, I wouldn't say I was particularly well educated in the rounder sense. Um, I'm not sure you got a rounder education at a Catholic grammar school in the 70s, to be honest. But um you got taught how to pass exams because that was what you had to do. Um so yeah, I went to Oxford for three years, um, eventually thoroughly enjoyed it, was homesick for the first 12 months, well, six months or so. Uh, but then I found beer and women, it was fine, it's no problem.
SPEAKER_00:There's your there's your hack. Yeah, the hack. Maybe that was the hack, yeah. And then where? Where was after then?
SPEAKER_01:Uh was back to well, I went to Chester Law School in Christleton. Um I did a year there, which was hard, was hard graft because it was learning by rote. I mean, it really was back to the classroom. It was very, very different to three years at university with a lot more freedom and and um being encouraged to think laterally and what have you. And did that for 12 months, passed just had to retake two exams because as I say, I wasn't particularly clever, I was just good at passing exams, and then really I wasn't. Um, but then went straight into articles. There was no gap years in my day. You did, you know, you might have done the shutdown at Ford's for three weeks over Christmas or a bit of grape picking in France if you were really adventurous, but most of my mates went straight into either work or university. So the age of what 21, 22, I was I was an article clerk.
SPEAKER_00:And then where did you go? How did you know where to go next? Was mentoring a thing back?
SPEAKER_01:Um it was, and I had a I had a very good mentor in the guy I work for, a guy called David Waring, who became managing and partner of Hill Dickinson before me. I was very close to him, and and I saw his transition into management. Um and to be frank, and this is not a criticism of him, I thought I could do it better in the sense that uh Hill Dickinson was of a stage of its evolution, a size, if you like, that he manfully tried to manage the firm and run a practice. And I thought this is madness, you know. We we're of a stage now where we need somebody for good or bad who's gonna manage the business. And um, and that was sort of my mantra when I went into management, and that's what the firm told me. The firm said they agreed with me, you know, a time has come where you're gonna have to give up practicing and you run the business if you're no good at it, tough. Um, but that's that's fair. I I readily accepted that.
SPEAKER_00:And what did you learn most about yourself during that time? Because you if you're like you've just been handed this, it's a great opportunity, yeah. Um, but also it's a transformation project as well. Because if you're gonna do things differently, then this is a long-established business, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Oh, well, even by that stage, we were 200 years old, dear as damn it, 195 when I took over. Um I think I was taught to well, I was taught, I realised I had to back myself, and that if I thought something was a good idea, give it a go. There may be a hundred good reasons why not, and people will tell you why not, and they may be right, but if they have told you and you've seen a way through, round, or over the obstacles they put in your way, then go for it. However dramatic, grandiose it may seem, give it a go. What's the worst that can happen?
SPEAKER_00:And you talk, you know, we talk now a lot of the you know the great leaders out there, you know, it's about failing fast.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Did you have to do that a lot?
SPEAKER_01:I we did a bit of failing. Yeah, of course you do. I don't I think if you're not failing, you're not trying hard enough. 100%. Um there was a there's a a great barrister of this city, uh Brian Levison, um, God love him, uh, who once said to me, and David Waring, actually, when I was an article clerk, so 45 years ago, whatever it was, if you don't lose cases, you're not you're not fighting enough. And I think the same principle applies in leadership. There's sometimes you've got to give it a go and you won't always win. You know, you you'll get things wrong, you will do, it's inevitable. But learn from that learn from what you get wrong and try not to do it again.
SPEAKER_00:And if someone was describing you as a leader, how would they?
SPEAKER_01:Um well, ask them. Um I think they would say that I'm a good communicator, and I think that is an absolute trait of a leader that has to be there. Uh, and I think I was okay at communication. I'm I'm comfortable talking to a room. Um I I like public speaking, actually, surprisingly, it doesn't phase me. I didn't at the start.
SPEAKER_00:It's in the scouse DNA, I think.
SPEAKER_01:I think it is in the scouse DNA, but I think it's also something you can learn how to do. And I took it seriously, and and I did learn how to do it, and and and I actually did get to enjoy a stage, love the sound of my own voice, basically. Um, so a good good communicator. Um, I like to think I always did my homework. Um, and you know, he who does the most homework wins, as as they say. Um and I I'd like to think I did that. And then if you're gonna be in a marketplace, if you're gonna be in law, understand, understand the marketplace, be a strategist. Um, not all of the marketplace will be for you, you'll have a place in it. Ours was the mid-mark, um, but understand it, and I think I did that.
SPEAKER_00:And that and that phrase about the homework, that was one of your mentors, wasn't it?
SPEAKER_01:It was David's, yeah, it was David's, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Because it's brilliant that, it's just and it's simple, simple to understand.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. I uh we I mean we now do a podcast and I host it, and uh and I am an absolute uh not perfectionist, but I prepare to the end degree. So, you know, if if one of our guests has read has written a book, I read it. Uh, I think it's it's it's courteous to do that apart from anything else, but also it's preparation. And our our producer always says, No, no, do it blind occasionally, it's good. I say, I can't. I've you know, this is in my DNA. If I'm you know doing something tomorrow, I'll prepare for it today, insofar as I can. There may be times when there's nothing there to prepare for and you've just got to wing it, but that's that's rare. Um, and more often than not, you can prepare, and you will be better if you prepare because you'll know more about the subject you're you're dealing with.
SPEAKER_00:And is it not just because we're inherently curious, inquisitive, nosy?
SPEAKER_01:Uh there's an element to that. There's also a fear element, I think. There's a fear, and it's imposter syndrome, isn't it? There's a fear of being caught out, there's a fear of not doing your homework. I always remember doing history A level uh with Pop Allen, as he was called, and the head of history at uh St. Eddie's, and he used to set us six topics a week, and then we would do an essay in the class. And Sod's law dictated that the one topic I hadn't prepared for was the one he picked on the day, and I felt shocking having to go up to him and say, I haven't prepared for this, I can't do it. And he gave me something else as if it was this, you know, pat on the head, you go away and do that. So that taught me a big lesson. Big lesson.
SPEAKER_00:And and you talk you know, the life lessons are key, aren't they? You know, as long as we're learning from them. But it would surprise me that you would suffer from imposter syndrome. Does it go back to that moment with potential?
SPEAKER_01:I I I've had imposter syndrome forever. I I I was forever fearful that someone was going to find me out as a managing partner or as a lawyer. Um, and and I don't think that ever left me. Um I feel okay about it now, and there's times I can look back now and think, actually, we did all right, didn't we? Um but at the time, I yeah, imposter syndrome was a big part of my makeup, and uh possibly it did put me on my metal on occasions, and and it may have been now that you talk about it, maybe it was one of the drivers for my preparation sort of um uh focus. Um but no, that no that it was always there, always there.
SPEAKER_00:And when you you stepped down from uh CEO uh in 2024 in 1820. Yeah, 2024, yeah. Um and but integral and part of was getting the the new naming rights at the stadium, Everton. Now we've already disclosed, haven't we? You know, we're here, yeah, look at us like we're friends.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, we can do this.
SPEAKER_00:You know, it's okay. I'm an Everton, see that every day on the side of the stadium the way it's magnificent, right? It is, yeah, it is and one of the best kept secrets because that did not leak.
SPEAKER_01:It didn't leak, no. Um I mean we've we've been public about this now, so I can say a bit about it. We were approached by Everton. Um, there was quite a period where Craig, my successor, was was saying no, and Everton came back because they wanted us. Um, they wanted a local business with a legacy, yeah. They wanted a local business with its heart in the Liverpool Merseyside community, legacy with the marine trade and all of those things with 450 people still here, but an international business. Um, you know, one that mirrored their their sort of trajectory in a way, all obviously the size is very, very different. Um, and they came back a number of times before Craig felt he had no option. Um, and I say that in a neutral sense, it wasn't being forced into it, but no option but to go to the board and say we have this opportunity, it's a good one for the following reasons. I'd entirely understand if you say now we don't do this sort of thing, but I think we've got to look at it. And uh we eventually put it to our partnership, although we we didn't actually need approval. Um, we thought it was so high profile. If the partners aren't gonna like it, it's their money, you know. We we we've got to give them an opportunity to have an opinion, and uh, even at that stage it didn't leak. Everton obviously didn't leak it. Um and we got to the stage of announcement with nobody in the outside world having an inkling, which which was great in the sense that that would have been incredibly speculative because we signed the deal about an hour before it was announced. Wow, in the end. Um uh yeah, we did. It was it was an interesting afternoon. Um, but as a red, uh I had a number of roles in it because obviously this was Craig's, you know, I was it's it's not for me to interfere anymore. I'm I'm I'm an NED, I advise, I counsel, I challenge. But he brought me in as his consigliary because nobody'd done this before and he just needed someone to talk to. And I sort of was put my arm round him and talked. But also as the red in the camp, I was the weather vane for how are those who aren't Evertonians in our own partnership, and indeed in our client base, and our you know, the those who are stakeholders in our business, how are they gonna view us? We're not sponsoring Everton, but we are sponsoring the stadium where Everton gonna play every fortnight, and and that's an a link that that is gonna be obvious to the world to see. And I wasn't convinced the first time round until I saw um Evan had put a montage video together of what it could look like, and Craig showed it to me, and and I sobbed at the prospect of you know us Hill Dickinson being associated with this. And for me, it was it was a couple of things really. Um there were obviously commercial benefits that we could see, and we're not a charity, so you you you you've got to have um uh you've got to have cognizance of that. Whether it will have commercial benefits in the long term, who knows? You can never tell, but you could see the prospect of it, and we have to have that. But for me, it was more about the city and um sustainability, giving back. I mean, we're going to be associated with Everton community, we've got some of the children projects associated with us, that's fantastic news. Um, we've seen what has happened over my lifetime in the South Docks and the the redevelopment there, and what you know, in fairness, Manchester City did in East Manchester with um Ethiad and Abu Dhabi. You know, how good would it be for our name to be the part of the catalyst for that whole regeneration of the docks going up to Seaforth, which is what the freakings have said they're gonna do, and we've no reason to disbelieve them. Indeed, they've started now already, haven't they? How good would that be to be associated with that and to give back to the city?
SPEAKER_00:And I think that's the thing, it is, it's uh it's for the city. I remember when I was working at the arena when it was being built, yeah, and you know, is that you've got to take it's got to be part of the city, it's not just a concert venue or a conference zone. It has to be something. The city and that waterfront is so you've maritime is in your heritage as well, but it's got to be something, it's something so precious, isn't it? That has so much history, you've got to be kind with it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I I think that's right, and of course, it it it it puts uh the city's status as a city of heritage or whatever it was called at risk. Well, okay, but it's added so I think already um we've seen benefits being added to the city because you know the profile's been incredible for the stadium. Everybody who goes there sings its praises, it's on the media 247365. Um, and and that's good for the city. It will bring visitors in, it will help the economy, it's helped the sustainability of the city.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely, economic benefit, absolutely regeneration, sustainability, still not being just putting it out there, anyway. Um, but one of the just talking about the city, the city that is so proud. But you read the second lesson at the Hillsborough Memorial Service back in 89, didn't you?
SPEAKER_01:Um I mean wow Yeah, yeah, well, I mean I can tell you about that. I can't remember if it was the first or the second, I've been thinking about it. No, Kenny Sir Kenny did the other one. Um I was the solicitor at the time and a member of what was the Football Sports Association back in the 80s, and I was at Hillsborough as well, and um the chairman of the association, Rogan Taylor, who was a great mate of mine. Um he was actually at Hillsborough with me. Um, he was asked by Peter Robinson, who was the club secretary at the time, to give uh to find somebody who would do one of the readings. And um Rogan asked me because he thought, well, I could hold myself together because I was a solicitor, used to public speaking. And um, well, I mean, what an honour, what a privilege. So uh I said yes. Um and um we said earlier about the mix of who humour and tragedy. So uh I'll tell you this story. There was a there was a bit of um and I get the um the mick ripped out of me for this at the time. So um when I Rogan said you do it, uh he had 30 tickets for the day and he gave them away. He said, You won't need one because you'd be doing the lesson. So okay, no problem. So I went to the cathedral, I think it was the Wednesday night, to do a rehearsal, and we did that, and the archbishop. Derek Warlock's uh chaplain said, You've got your ticket for Saturday, haven't you? I said, Well, I haven't got one. Um, wasn't allocated one because I'm you know reading the lesson. Said, Okay, no worries, I'll write you a letter. I said to whom it may concern, uh Mr. Jackson is reading the first lesson, whatever it is. Please admit him to the cathedral. So and so, uh, chaplain to Archbishop Derek Warlock. I've still got the letter at home, obviously. So uh the day before Peter Robinson rings me and says, It would be good and easier if you came to Anfield on Saturday morning and came on the team bus to the cathedral. Well, I said, Oh, go on then, uh, obviously. And um, so we go to Anfield, my ex-missus was with me, we go on a team bus, she's gabbing away. I'm trying to ear wig Ron Yates and Nessie Shankly who are sat in front of me. I mean, it's surreal at this point, absolutely surreal. And of course, it's at a time of incredible tragedy, and the city's, you know, in still in mourning. And we get to the cathedral, and my missus goes off to the main entrance, and the um the team bus people go in through a uh a private entrance at the side, and they're all flashing tickets. And I get to the front and I get my letter out, and the Bobby says, Where's your ticket? I said, I haven't got one. He said, Well, you're not coming in then, son. I said, Well, it's a bit of a problem that because I'm sort of like doing the reading. And he said, I don't care what you're doing and who you are, you're not coming in without a ticket. Nobody's coming in without a ticket. We've got Margaret Thatcher, Neil Kinnock, the Queen. We still don't know whether she's coming, so you're not coming in. I said, Well, can you please go and find the chaplain? Because, you know, this is like serious. So he said, All right, and he shut the door on me, locked me out of the cathedral. Uh, came back with a guy who was clearly special branch, never identified himself, but he he just had that aura of my god, you're either special branch or MI5. And he said, So what's going on here? And I told him, he said, Well, I don't care, you're not coming in. Uh, you haven't got a ticket. So please go and find the chaplain. So he said, Right, I will. You, he pointed at me, stay there. And he said to the Bobby, watch him, if he moves, arrest him. Okay, we should never volunteer to do this now. Anyway, the chaplain came back, you know, 15 minutes later and had to identify me because they wouldn't accept a letter for you know security reasons. And I eventually got into the uh cathedral to much ribbing subsequently, as I told a tale to my mates afterwards.
SPEAKER_00:But even in a time of immense, like you say, mourning tragedy, there's always a place of humour.
SPEAKER_01:There is, there is. There was there was another one actually because because of um I was acting I acted for the FSA at the Hillsborough Inquiry, so I got pushed out to do a lot of the media stuff uh by Rogan. And I think it was just before, yes, it was before the uh memorial service on the Saturday, I got asked to go to Anfield first thing in the morning to do uh BBC News. Suzanne Dando. Was it Jill Jill Dando Jill Dando? Uh was the presenter at the time, and it was me, Craig Johnson, and Tommy Smith. And we're on the pitch, and it's very choreographed. And um uh I might have to swear. Am I allowed to swear on this book? Thank you, thank you. Um so uh Jill Dando comes on the screen, and Craig Johnson off air says, Jesus Christ, if I'd known it was a Sheila, I'd have clean my fucking teeth. And um, so we get past that, and it's all very choreographed. So we get three questions, we know what they are, and then Jill Dando threw a curveball in and said, There's rumours the Queen might not be coming. What do you think about that, Peter? And I just babbled a load of nonsense about I'm sure you know she's got demands on her time, and who are we to you know have this? Craig Johnson did the same, and then she got to Tommy Smith, and he basically said, uh, well, you know, it's up to her, isn't it? If she can't be asked if she wants to go shopping with her husband, Philip, then that's for her. We're we're not bothered. It's our bloody memorial service in the first place. Thank you. We'll go back to the studio. And Tommy Smith turned to the crew and he said, Fucking, I'll have to give me fucking OBE back now, will I? So, you know, even in a you know, a tragic moment, I think we as scousers can always see something to help us through, can't we? And that's what it's all about.
SPEAKER_00:And that's in your that's in your descriptory of yourself.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, definitely.
SPEAKER_00:I am so leadership can be full on, and and you've have been that leader that has driven changes, acquisitions, yeah. Um, and clearly a values-led leader as well. I think that's come through. Yeah, I hope so. You know, 100%. Um but well-being is can be the thing that as leaders you can let slip. Yeah, have you observed that? Have you noticed that about yourself?
SPEAKER_01:Um yes, but I think I came to terms with it. Um and I sort of learned that there had to be some non-negotiables that I had to have some time that unless you know the the building was burning down, the world was was falling apart, that was my time and nothing interrupted with it. So, and it was small things. Um well, it could be small or large. So, you know, I would never miss a Liverpool home game. I know it sounds a bit naff and twee and what have you, but that was my time. I would go with the family, with my son, whatever was home at the time, um, I would go to Anfield. End of story, and I don't care what's going on, that's my time. Um, I'm a big cricket fan. So if there's a test match at Lord's, I will go. You know, there's gotta be a bloody good reason why I can't go on the day I decide to go or the days I decide to go. If the world is falling apart, okay, I'm a leader and I've got to do it. But unless it's falling apart, that's my time.
SPEAKER_00:Did I not read or listen? Wasn't there something you were at not so long ago that I don't know whether it was his naming rights or something like that. There was something going on that you had the test match you had to have on.
SPEAKER_01:Oh yeah, well, yes, it was probably our AGM recently.
SPEAKER_00:It was the AGM and being a good one. It was one of your posts recently. One of your posts recently I saw it was your AGM. Yeah. You're you're now not in the past. I need to make sure that I've got that in the morning and then I'm prepped, and then I can go in and do my stuff. Absolutely. Just prior planning, right? Yeah. That's your preparation. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:But it's it's about non-negotiables, I think. And it's about it's about finding that time that you know is going to be yours, whether it's a walk around Calderstones Park, what whatever it is, trying to stick to it, unless, as I say, the world is burning around you. And if you can do that, at least you've got some opportunity not only to to um unwind, but to think. Yeah. Because sometimes you don't get the chance to think when operationally you're at it, you know, for day after day after day. And you you sometimes need to take that step backwards, see a bigger picture, see a vision of what it might look like in the future. Um, and you've got to find that, I think.
SPEAKER_00:Do you find that easy to find?
SPEAKER_01:Uh well, I find it easy to not now. Um I gradually, yes, I did. Um, because I did get to the stage where I was prepared to say no. And you know, my diary is blacked out for a reason. It's not just because I fancy watching the chase at five o'clock. Um, it's because I'm going for a walk in Coldstones Park or Liverpool at home that night, and I'm having you know, bite to eat with our Matty and we're we're going to match, or whatever it might be. Um, and I I got to the stage where I could do that easily. I think you've got to recognise when the world is burning, and there are always going to be occasions like that, and and and they come first at that point. You you you know, you have a fiduciary duty, you have a moral duty to your partners and your people. Um, but absent that you've got to do it, you've got to take the time.
SPEAKER_00:Quadruple bypass.
SPEAKER_01:Wouldn't recommend it.
SPEAKER_00:Just come up totally unexpected. Like, you know, no pre-warning letter, there was no trailer.
SPEAKER_01:There was a there was a bit of a lead-in, if I'm being honest, although um, as most males do, we just get on with it, don't we? So um I didn't realise this till after the event, but I probably had about a three-year lead-in. Oh wow. Um, um it was my younger son, Matty, who who spotted this and remembered it when I was eventually diagnosed. And I said, Oh, this is this is a bit of a shock. He said we shouldn't be dad, because do you remember when we went to watch Liverpool play and you had to stop because you were breathless? Well, what do you think that was? Now that we know what do you think that was? So there was a bit of a lead-in, but um what I was I was just getting breathlessness as I thought. Obviously, it wasn't, it was a lot more, and did nothing about it for some time. Benefit of hindsight, I had two mini heart attacks, but I didn't tell our Deborah about that, so let's not tell anybody, shall we?
SPEAKER_00:Don't tell anyone, no one knows.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, keep that out. Um and um eventually, and it was purely by chance, I did uh an insurance medical, and um I'd already done one and they'd lost the papers. But the doctor who did it, God love him, said, I kept the papers, so no problem. He said, Well, we never did the stress echo test, the bike test. He said, And we've got to do it, or they won't they won't give you the cover. He said, Well, don't worry, I only live around the corner from you. Uh, I'm an early riser, I'll come round dead early if you want, and we'll do it in your front room. I'll bring the bike and I'll bring all the the ECG equipment and we'll do it. I'll put the kettle on. I said, fantastic, thank you very much indeed. Which we did. And he said, There's something wrong. Uh he said, I think you've got you're missing a beat. I can't remember what they call it, whatever it's called. He said, if it's that, it's no problem. Um but I'm gonna have to tell the insurers and I know what they're gonna say. They're gonna say they're not gonna insure you until you've had a full cardiac um checkout. And you won't get that on the NHS because you have no symptoms of a heart attack. Because I hadn't mentioned breathlessness, because you don't need everyone don't want to upset anybody. And um so eventually I thought, well, I'm gonna have to go and get this this cardiac cardio check, uh, which I did at um uh at Broad Green Heart and Chest, God love them. And uh they immediately diagnosed angina, and then um we did the angiogram to see whether we could have an angioplasty. And I can't remember the name of my consultant. Oh, what a dreadful thing. Anyway, we were getting on fine, so I'm in the um the operating room, which is more like a space control centre with you know screens everywhere and cameras and everything. And he's pumped the die in and he's given me the adrenaline bump, which is fantastic. I recommend the adrenaline bumps, they were great. I had three of them. And um at one point he said, Can we just move the camera over here? And then he said, Oh shit, that's game over. And I thought, oh, hang on a minute. And he immediately said, uh no, no, no, no, no, you're gonna have to have a bypass. It's just I can't do the angiogram. I said, Really? Bedside manner, okay. But we were as I say, we were gonna give you some feedback. We were getting on fine by this stage, so it was uh, you know, again, it's humour in the the face of adversity, isn't it? And he said, No, I can't, I can't do the angiogram. Um uh you need uh we need to get a surgeon, uh, we need to do a bypass. I think it's a quadruple, it might be quintuple, don't know. Wow. Um they did say, he did say, uh, and I don't know how you calculate this, but he said you your main artery is gone completely, it's 100% out. Said your secondary artery to your heart is 98% calcified, you're being kept alive on your peripheral arteries, they can't do that for long. What are you doing in three weeks' time? Because I think you'll be going in for a for the op.
SPEAKER_00:What did you learn most about that?
SPEAKER_01:Um, a number of things. Um, first of all, if there's something wrong with you, whatever it is, and however small you might think it is, go and ask somebody like a doctor who is medically qualified to say it's nothing, Pete, don't worry about it. Or shit, it's a quadruple bypass. And that was stupid. I should have done this two years beforehand, because I had the symptoms for a long time. Um, so that that was the first thing. Secondly, I became the grown up in the family uh because my partner, Deborah, is a nurse, she knew exactly what was going on, and she was she'd gone, she'd broken. You know, she was following me around and holding my hand in the park and going for a walk in case it keeled over. She she admits now she would wake up in the middle of the night and make sure I was breathing. And uh my eldest son, who's as hard as nails, a corporate finance lawyer, flew back from the holiday of a lifetime to be at the bedside. Daniel, I said, What are you gonna do? Do the operation, stay, you know, you're over there with your family. No, I'm coming home. My youngest, he'd gone, he was hopeless. So I was the grown-up, um, which which actually suited me because I felt as if I was looking after them. Because I I I I did recognise very, very quickly there's absolutely bugger all I can do about this now. I am here, you know, I'm in three weeks' time, I'm having a major operation, might live, might die. Can't do anything about it.
SPEAKER_00:It's your own personal crisis management situation, right?
SPEAKER_01:It is, and I felt okay. I'm in the hands of Omar Oatu, the surgeon, who I've done my homework. He's one of the leading surgeons in the country. And uh he actually operated on our chair who had a only had a triple Jonathan. Um but I thought, well, he's one of the best in the country. I mean, one of the best hospitals in the world, you know, we are blessed on Mercy Side to have broadgreen. Um, what can I do about this? It's too late to be going on a diet or going, you know, running or anything, that's gonna kill me. So um uh yeah, I'll turn up on the Saturday morning and we'll see what happens. Um, and thankfully, you know, it was great in the sense that I recovered very, very quickly. And by the time I went for the sign-off meeting with with Mr. Noatu, uh I was walking five miles a day and going to the gym and doing everything they said you could do, which I didn't believe I would be able to, but I did. And and I learned a lot through that about myself. And do your own personal homework? Personal homework, yeah, I did it. And I was proven right.
SPEAKER_00:And you're now in uh a new chapter.
SPEAKER_01:Yep.
SPEAKER_00:Um as a values-led leader, yeah, you will not be sat. You might be watching the test match, you might be going to the home games, but for one minute you're not sat you're hosting a podcast, the 3am podcast. What makes you happy now?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, right, in a work sense or a domestic sense, in a work sense. Um being being engaged makes me happy, and that's the hard thing about not being a CEO anymore. And even though I'm on the board, I sit on my hands and I bite my tongue because you're once a leader, always a leader, in my view. Uh, that's fine. I can I can handle it, and I try to keep out the way, and it's Craig's business, not mine anymore, but it's hard. Um, so being engaged when I am makes me happy. Um, the mentoring work I do is very fulfilling, um, particularly with those who take it seriously. Now, what am what do I mean by that? It's very easy internally.
SPEAKER_00:Some people were doing their homework. Well, exactly. That's gotta do their homework.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly. And I I have a number of people who are really, really serious about you know making themselves better in various ways and think I can help, which maybe I can.
SPEAKER_00:And that's what mentoring is. I think sometimes people think mentoring is about being the best expert at this or the best practitioner. It's been the best version of you, right?
SPEAKER_01:Mentoring, it's it is, and it's also listening. Um there's a hell of a lot of listening involved in it. And and it's I don't know the answers to half the things that they ask me. I haven't got a clue, but but I'll I'll I'll venture a suggestion and I'll venture a way that they might find out for themselves.
SPEAKER_00:Uh, what have you learned? Because I always think with a mentoring relationship, we have enabled um thousands of mentoring relationships, whether it be really tiny bite-sized conversations, um, but everything matters, right? But I always find that for any mentoring conversation you learn as well. Oh, gosh. And I think some of the things that you can learn from mentees is it's like, huh, ground check, groundbreaking.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you learn I think you learn a lot about human nature because you're seeing your mentee um uh in in circumstances where you wouldn't have seen them in the ordinary operational course of the day. I think what you what I've learned as well, and I'll give you an example, is that it doesn't matter the sector, the business, the geography, whatever, problems are problems. And if you've had them in our business, it the likelihood is others have had very similar problems. So I was asked to uh mentor the CEO of an NHS trust, a client of ours, and he was going through the NHS fast track course to see where you have to find an external mentor. And I thought, well, what do I know about the NHS? I mean, all of my family work in the NHS, but personally I don't, you know, don't know anything. But I very quickly realized that his problems were our problems, but he just called them different things, and it was a different name for how they manifested themselves. Um, and that that struck me as well, actually, that was quite welcoming because I didn't think I would have transferable skills outside of a professional service firm, a law firm. But problems are problems, yeah. Uh, and I learned learned a lot through that as well.
SPEAKER_00:Um, quick fire from a round. So, what would you say is the key trait of leadership? And I know you've just said about listening, I think that's one key thing, but what would you say is the the one most valuable trait as a leader? What are you most excited about for the future of our next gen?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, that's a hard one. Um I am excited about whether they can um join the dots because there is well, it's not just anecdotal now, is it it's there's evidence, it's very different mindset um in say Gen Z and the younger uh millennials. Are they going to work out for themselves that work life balance is great, but if they want the success that our generations had, you probably have to work a little bit harder. I'm not saying that work-life balance choice is bad or anything, I'm not being judgmental at all, but it's economic reality. You know, the more you put in, the more you get out. Now, are they going to join those dots up? Because that's that's fascinating, really fascinating.
SPEAKER_00:And will AI help that? Because you've got AI in the mix now. This isn't this is outside of my quick firearm, by the way. But you know, we talk about AI, we can talk about do we think it's taking jobs? Or actually, will it make it easier for us then to do what we're good at?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I I I don't think we know, quite frankly, in a lot of situations now. Um I don't I think it will change the demographics of a workforce. Um, and if I use law as an example, what I suspect it will remove is a lot of the more junior strata of lawyers, accountants who do the repetitive, monotonous um research type activities.
SPEAKER_00:It could fuel that pipeline, right? Could fuel and fill that pipeline.
SPEAKER_01:It could, but at the end of the day, if you're selling your business, you're gonna want to look a human being in the eye and be told that it is the right thing to do because you will not trust the machine. And I think you're going to need more senior. Lawyers to interpret what AI is telling you. And I think the what will make a good lawyer in the future probably will change from what it has been in my day, uh, in that you're gonna have to be much more technically cute, not necessarily a technician in the sense of knowing about IT and AI and whatever, but being able to understand what it's telling you and how to use it for your clients better, and that's gonna be a very, very expensive individual. So whether things are gonna be cheaper, I'm not convinced yet. And a final quick fire Desert Island disc.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, one song. I don't need you to sing it. No, I'm not going to.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I it's not gonna be You'll Never Walk Alone, um, because that's on the way in at the funeral, and it's Test Match special on the way out. But uh Deborah and I's song is David Grey, and you know, I can't remember the name of it, she's gonna kill me.
SPEAKER_00:You're gonna be in the trouble. Come on, phone a friend in the audience.
unknown:It's not Babylon, is it?
SPEAKER_01:No, it's not, but it's off the White Ladders album.
SPEAKER_00:Right, we're googling that, we'll come back to that because otherwise you're gonna be well in trouble. We'll be well in trouble. So we'll come back to that. While we're doing that, I'm gonna ask you to delve into the power jar, the power jar of fun, into the jar of a question that one of our previous guests has left for you. What could it possibly be?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, for God's sake. Um if you could trade lives with your pet for a day, what would you do first? What pet have you got? We've got two cats. Oh, wow. Called Albie and Virgil. Albi and Virgil. Uh sorry, uh Bobby and Virgil. Albi was the one before that, after Bobby for me, you know, Virgil van Dijk. Oves. Um, if you could trade lives with your pet.
SPEAKER_00:Who and her throw that question will look.
SPEAKER_01:What would you do first? I'd find whoever wrote this question and scratch them. Um well, my two pets seem to spend most of their time asleep, which sounds like a flipping good idea for me. So I think I'd have a kip in the afternoon. There you go, I'd have a siesta. Yeah, I'd have a kip in the afternoon.
SPEAKER_00:Um say hello, wave goodbye. No, that doesn't sail away.
SPEAKER_01:Please forgive me.
SPEAKER_00:Sail away.
SPEAKER_01:Please forgive me because I know not what I'd do.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. So, your desert island disc. Yep. Only one record, or CD, okay, or stream, because it's a very, very good island. What would the record be?
SPEAKER_01:Okay, well, it's not going to be You Never Walk Alone. That's on the way into the funeral. It's a test match special theme tune on the way out. So it's got to be mine and Deborah's song, which is Please Forgive Me by David Grey from the White Ladders album.
SPEAKER_00:Amazing. Your soundtrack. Peter, thank you so much for joining us on the teal couch today. Uh keep playing awesome, keep managing those non-negotiables and keep doing your homework.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you very much.
SPEAKER_00:Good to see you. Good to see you. Subscribe on YouTube, Apple, Amazon Music, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Leave us a review or follow us on socials. We are Power underscore net on Insta, TikTok, and Twitter. We are Power on LinkedIn, Facebook, and we are underscore power on YouTube.
